Topic: GOTHS

[VulturEMaN]

Well, each highschool clique has it's good and bad people. The reason people fear goths is because they don't understand them and are intimidated. I wear a leather wrist cuff with a skull on it, but it doesn't mean I am goth. And I doubt any of you have emt a true goth. The ones in highschool just dress up like goths, when in actuality they aren't goths at all. True goths would probably scare the ::Dolphin Noise:: out of these so-called highschool goths.

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Fraid I DO kow some TRUE Goths...went out with one for quite a long time...I actually participated in a ritual once...quite the ordeal.

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Well now...this explains everything!

My mom may not know latin, but when she gets mad she cusses at you in serbian..lol

[Jackie-Boy]

I've noticed many people like to create stereotypes when talking about Goths. That's just wrong. Do you guys know where the term "Goth" comes from? There were these guys named the Visigoths in ancient times who slaughtered all these people. They have no relation to the Goths we think of today. Just an interesting fact, thought I'd point that out. But anyway, it's my belief that Goths are things Mothers and Fathers make up to scare children, like hippes, Satan, the Jell-O monster in your basement, the Tooth Fairy, Dad's new "boss", Reality TV, and coyotes.

[GIR]

Plays videos games that contain violence or role-playing nature

so I LOVE rpgs im not a gothic/cult

[Gideon Brown]

Well now...this explains everything!

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Nah...going to band camp twice explains why I am who I am. Not the people I date and the things they had me do.

[Elizabeth Rose]

Ok, let me try to help out here. Check out this website. It has got a lot of good stuff on true Goths and in my opinion helps show that Goth is a lifestyle, not a look, religion or cult.

And here's a definition of "Goth".

Allow me to put a warning: there is objectionable language on this site, very little but it is still there. Just a heads up.

[oscar_the_grouch]

I've noticed many people like to create stereotypes when talking about Goths. That's just wrong. Do you guys know where the term "Goth" comes from? There were these guys named the Visigoths in ancient times who slaughtered all these people. They have no relation to the Goths we think of today. Just an interesting fact, thought I'd point that out. But anyway, it's my belief that Goths are things Mothers and Fathers make up to scare children, like hippes, Satan, the Jell-O monster in your basement, the Tooth Fairy, Dad's new "boss", Reality TV, and coyotes.

in the words of bart simpson:

... are just things made up to scare children like the boogie man and michael jackson (i couldnt resist ive got nothing against him)

ive read both the defintions of goth/gothic and punk just to see what people are actaully calling themselves LOL! and no the goths we think of today are a lot different. but i dont think this debate was refereing to old times, but modern.

Paige

[Thomas]

i beleive the leaflet  was referring to modern times. lol.
I love the dark, its so...dark. lol.

[Fifth Dynasty]

I have absolutely no problem with gothics. It's an act of self-expreission, nothing big. Gothics are no different than I am.

[Isnt Anything]

Goth is something that the kiddies like to call themself because they like mu-metal and wear black. I'm not being sarcastic, its the truth. Look at anyone at your local high school.

[oscar_the_grouch]

Goth is something that the kiddies like to call themself because they like mu-metal and wear black. I'm not being sarcastic, its the truth. Look at anyone at your local high school.

to much truth in that.

Paige

[DiE HaRrD PuNk]

THATS THE STUPIDEST ARTICLE I HAVE EVER SEEN. I WOULD LIKE TO GO TO ENGLAND AND SCREAM AT THEM TO GET A LIFE. i guess that would make me a goth too. almost everything on that list pretains to me too. cept the drugs and ctrap. and oversleeping? give me a break. i know plenty of adults who sleep till 12! and eats too little or too much? i bet the person  who handed them out was just the perfect amount of weight !(sarcasam) give me a break. they are bored and have nothing better to do than pick on other peoples kids

[Rocko]

Alot of this list I don, but I'm not a goth, punk, or a skater.

[Spiff]

They created wonderful architecture in my hometown, which is glorious to look at. To a "neogoth", art is their own blood dripping on a piece of paper.

[slugbarf]

I don't see a problem with them, they should be able to do/believe whatever the want unless it's not causing any problems with the law.

[Sherry]

Wanna know what Goth is? ^^

Credit to: Enigma Zero for The Sources

What is Goth?

Goth as a Counter-Culture:
1967: The hippie counter-culture saw that the world sucked and promised to change it with love.
1977: Punk culture saw that the world still sucked and raised a middle finger in defiance.
1981: Goths understood all along the importance of a good smoke and a laugh.

Definition of Goth 1:
Goth unashamedly celebrates the dark recesses of the human psyche. Put the back of your hand on your forehead, and you're there: dark sensuality, sweeping sadness, morbid fascination, forbidden love, the beauty of enduring pain, you get the picture.

Definition of Goth 2: Random Quote Definitions:
"...being Goth, for me, is seeing beauty, and its coming destruction, at the same time. For me...It's the last dance as the walls are crumbling around you..."
- Beatgrrl

"[Goth] is the ability to find the art where art seems to be lacking; to find the light in the darkness and embrace it for all its worth..."
- Jennifer Mason

Gothic Definition 3: The Gordon A. Crews Definition:
It is basically indefinable, because "Goth" means different things to each follower. Many adopt unusual fashions in order to separate themselves from other youth. Gordon A. Crews, associate dean of the School of Justice Studies at Roger Williams University in Bristol, CT is an investigator of what he calls the "occult" which-- in his opinion -- includes the Goth culture. He said: "It is up to the individual to define what Goth is for themselves ... The mentality is, 'I want to be left alone but I want to be seen. I want to see the shock on other peoples' faces."

Some factors that are commonly observed are:

-Its unique music, art and literature.

-The use of extreme black clothing, light colored makeup, unusual hair styles, body piercing, bondage items, etc.

-A fascination with medieval, Victorian and Edwardian history.

-Wearing of symbols such as a Christian cross; an Egyptian ankh or "Eye of Ra," or "Eye of Horus;" a Wiccan pentacle, a Satanic inverted pentacle.

-Goths tend to be non-violent, pacifistic, passive, and tolerant. Many in the media have mistakenly associated Goth with extreme violence and hatred of minorities, white supremacy, etc.

-A lot of people turn to the Gothic subculture after having a hard time in school, feeling alienated, and looking for a way to express themselves that mirrors those feelings. Others find the scene through literature, still others want to be shocking, and some people just find black clothing slimming."

-Goth music often deals with thought-provoking topics, concentrating on societal evils, like racism, war, hatred of groups, etc. They tend to concentrate on the very "nasty, unhappy" topics that their geographic culture wants to "ignore and forget."

-A fascination with death. They try "to find a different way of thinking about life, like trying to find beauty in life, pain and death. It's all a quest for immortality."

-Some Goths enjoy playing role playing games. However, RPGs are not an integral component of Goth culture. It is just that those intellectual and creative challenges that draw them to the Goth scene make them more likely to enjoy RPGs as well.

-Other interests: writings by authors like Dante, Byron, Tolstoy; German Expressionist silent films; writing music; painting, etc.

Definition of Goth 4: The Birth of a Sub-culture:
-Goth, as a modern movement, started as one component of the punk rock scene. As the latter faded, Goth survived by creating its own subculture.

-The first use of the term Goth in its present meaning was on a British Broadcasting Commission (BBC) TV program. Anthony H. Wilson, manager of Joy Division described the band as Gothic compared with the pop mainstream. The name stuck.

-Their use of black clothing was originally "something of a backlash to the colorful disco music of the seventies." It also stuck.

-The movement first became established in the Slimelight, a nightclub in London, England, in the early 1980's.

-Spreading to the U.S., it first became popular in California.

-Goth is featured in The Crow horror movies (1994, 1996). Other Gothic movies are the original Nosferatu, the color remake Nosferatu the Vampyre, and the Cabinet of Doctor Caligari.

-Popular music bands are the Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Sisters of Mercy, Dead Can Dance, and many others.

Definition of Goth 5: The Satanic Misconception:
-Many Goths reflect popular culture and are probably nominal or devout Christians. Atheism, Agnosticism, the New Age, Gnosticism, Shamanism, Wicca, other Neopagan traditions, and other minority faith groups are represented more frequently than in the general population.

-Goths often wear Christian Crosses or Christian Crucifixes,New Age/ancient Egyptian Ankh symbols, or various other decorations of religious signifigance. Some do this as expression of their religious beliefs or because they like their appearance.

-Religion is frequently discussed on the Goth newsgroups. Many songs, band names and album titles have Christian themes.

-The public incorrectly commonly associates Goths with Marilyn Manson. "Manson publicly presents himself as a follower of the Church of Satan... He was ordained a priest in the Church of Satan by the [late] founder, Anton LaVey. Many fans refer to him as the Rev. Marilyn Manson." (Actually, Manson is not a follower of that Church; he was simply appointed as a Reverend within the Church by its founder, Anton LaVey.) From this Satanic connection, the perception has grown that Goths are frequently linked to Satanism. There are a few Satanists who are also Goths, but they are rare. There are few Goths who even Like Marilyn Manson at all for that matter.

Definition of Goth 6: The Russ Brewer Letter:
Russ Brewer, a sales representative at a Wal-Mart, wrote this definition in a letter to The Christian Science Monitor as a way to explain the Sub-culture he had chosen to associate himself with and to stem the rashes of coilence towards Goths after the events of Columbine(which were falsely blaimed on Goths).

Because of the terrible tragedy in Littleton and the wrongful accusations of a handful of reporters, open season on Goths has begun.

In hopes that a few of you may take this to heart, I want to explain what "Goth" is.

Everyone outside who sees someone of a gothic nature wants a peek inside. Most are afraid and chastise us for how we look, even before they see who we are, how we act, and why we prefer what we are over all the other stereotypical archetypes.

Jocks like sports. Cheerleaders like jocks. Skaters like skateboarding and other extreme sports. Goths like beauty, and the wondrous imagery man's struggle with mortality.

People wonder why we dress like something out of "Night of the Living Dead" - frilly poet shirts, lace, leather, and fishnet. It's not that we're obsessed with death. It's that dressing like this is our own way of expressing ourselves.

In a perfect world, Goths would accept everything and everyone for who and what they are. But unfortunately it isn't a perfect world, no matter how much we all attempt to delude ourselves. So we must suffer the degradation and harassment of everyone outside.

Goths live by their own rules. Most people see that as anarchy. We don't. We live our lives the way we see fit, disregarding all everyone else says about us. We strive to be content with ourselves and surroundings. To find peace. We may see beauty differently than you do, but beauty is beauty any way you see it. It may be dew on a rose in the morning, or the way the clouds wrap the moon at night.

People tend to chastize Goths for their fascination with Vampiric Lore or Fairies. If you look deeper into the mythology of the vampire, you'll see that it is nothing short of a romantic love myth. As for the fairies, who can resist a beautiful male or female with wings?

We do not set out to avenge any wrongs committed against us, we do not wear our trench coats to conceal automatic weapons to open fire on our peers. If someone would act against a Goth, the most we'd do is toss spiders in his hair. At the darkest, we'd glare with an unsettling gaze from our black-rimmed eyes. Then we'd talk and laugh about it later with our friends.

The dark music we listen to is not why we are Goths. That music is made by Goths for us. For this reason, most Goths tend to disregard the claim that rock star Marilyn Manson (b. Brian Warner) is Goth - simply because the teeny boppers who have become Goth because of him don't know the true meaning of the culture. Instead, they revel in the wave of demented anarchy that Manson has brought into the limelight. At best, Brian Warner simply took from us a small amount of the fashion. At worst, he has warped the idealism in favor of his own twisted thinking, lyrically, photographically, and in appearance.

We may seem to act strangely to you, but we are merely content with ourselves, and know that no matter what others think of us, we know our own self-worth. You see us acting ethereal, or depressed, or zombified - but that is just our way of showing you how we feel inside. We aren't afraid of our emotions; we revel in them and show the world how we feel, because how we feel is what makes us who we are.

Whenever the "objective" media come along and do a report on our subculture, many times they see us as a threat. Very few reporters have been brave enough to actually dig deep into our lives, our thoughts, and our reasons for being true to ourselves. Those who have, know we are not a threat and come away more enlightened - not just about us, but about their own lives as well. The majority of reporters who take us at face value deem us "evil" or a threat to the "normal people."

We are not a "gang." We group together due to friendship and camaraderie just like jocks - who are never considered a street gang - would go to a basketball game together.

We wear black for many different reasons, some symbolic, others not so symbolic. Black is the absorption of all colors. Like black, we wish to absorb and feel the range of human emotion and sensation. Also, black clothes go with anything - in a fashion sense. Black also makes the skin look paler which adds to our dramatic and theatrical appearance. That dramatic flair is an outlet for expressing who we are and how we feel, not to scare little children and the elderly.

I hope this explanation helps you in the media to see a little more into our lives. Maybe next time you'll be a little more kind when it comes to finding a scapegoat in a terrible tragedy like Littleton. We may prefer the night, but we are not the creatures who go bump in it.

Definition of Goth 7: Stereotypes and their Corrections:
People have accused or described Goths as being:

-Depressed: Just because you accept death as something that is going to occur at some point in your life does not mean you're always depressed.

-Unusually bigoted: Goths are one of the most tolerant sub-cultures. Only Hippies are more tolerant and they love everybody.

-Violent: Goths tend to usually be debators or intellectuals. There are some cases where this is true, but no more than in the general populace.

-Suicidal: This is the fault of Hollywood and the High School Wannabe Crowd. There are no more Suicidal Goth Teens than there are Suicidal Teens.

-Involved in illegal drugs: Again, this is not a trait the Sub-culture is known for more than the general populace.

-Vampires or believe themselves to be vampires: Just because someone likes to dress like Lestat does not mean they believe they are a Vampire. When was the last time you seen a Goth try to take on 4 guys with guns because he was immortal?

-Satanists: See above Section on this.

-Musicians, painters, and other artists: Since the Goth Scene does have it's own Artistic flare then it is only natural that they have their people who create Art, music, or other forms of art.

-Computer programmers (although there seem to be a lot of them): Since the introduction of the internet to general public a thriving Online Goth Community has sprung up. This is the same as say the communities of people who like Pop, Metal, or anything else with an interest group of more than 2 people. It's simply a better way to communicate with people on a global basis. So, having said that, it's only natural that some would be Computer Programmers.

-Wearers of black: This is simply one of the easiest ways for people to feel they belong to the Goth Sub-Culture. Not all people who look like The Crow or Neo are Goths. Some people simply like Black. Some Goths wear other colors. Some types of goths actually prefer to wear all white,gunmetal, or crimson in their wardrobes.

-Dyers of their hair: Little old ladies die their hair too...are they Goths?

-Users of white makeup: Mimes, Clowns, and all other manner of people use white makeup. Some Goths don't wear makeup at all. It's a preference issue based on the person.


Conclusion:
As you can see this is not as simple as black and white. It's a sub-culture comprised of many different kinds of people with many different ideas. Goths tend to be Artists, Intellectuals, Poets, and Musicians as much as they tend to be Wal-Mart Employees, Computer Programmers, Businessmen, or even Plummers. Many moons ago I was the co-leader of the Second Largest Chat Channel on Undernet(a popular chat network). Channel #Vampires was comprised of both Goths as well as people who were heavily into the game Vampire: The Masquerade. As you can imagine this topic came up quite often and I remember once that my partner in crime, co-leader, on this particular project was getting kind of annoyed by the "My clothes are more Goth than your clothes." rants of the little children in the room and imparted this particular piece of wisdom upon them.

"It's not the clothes that make the Goth. It's the Goth that makes the clothes. When all of you bickering little baby-bats* understand this...then you will truly be enlightened and realize how foolish you sound." -NiteTrain

*baby-bats: A popular Goth term that refers to fledgling goths or wannabes who think they know everything already. Think Newbies.

I know reading this particular post was an amazing undertaking and if you spent the time to cover all of this material then you are to be commended(I type alot sometimes ). I merely wanted to present this information so that people who were curious what some of the members of this forum were talking about could have multiple viewpoints and insights into what was being discussed.